OT: whining (was: RE: Why is gcc3.2 prerelease?)

["Stephan Mueller" <smueller at Exchange dot Microsoft dot com>]

I'm not being thin-skinned -- I was using an example from Andrew's mail
(the M$ reference) to have some fun with his 'careless mistake' comment.
I used it because it was conveniently available, is all. (Note how my
wording was virtually identical to Andrew's.)

I think by 'the author' you're referring to me (not Andrew), so I'll
address your comment about whining.  1) I wouldn't call my comment
whining :-)  2) what would you propose I do that counts as a positive
way to change the perception?  I think that a polite comment or two
rebutting a clearly (IMHO) over-the-top suggestion that Microsoft has
'infiltrated FSF' to 'sabotage' things, in a post with some other,
excellent points (your claim, not mine :-) is a decent way to go about
this.  And oh yeah, when I'm not posting here, I work really hard on
Microsoft software, removing bugs, getting others to remove bugs,
designing things well, that sort of thing.

We're now off-topic for the list; sorry.  I won't reply again in public
on this thread.
I've also re-added the original thread below, since the text of this
message and the one I'm replying to make references to text in the
original discussion.

stephan(speaking only for myself, not my employer);

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Drash [mailto:JDrash at eesus dot jnj dot com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 12:07 PM
To: cygwin at cygwin dot com
Subject: RE: Why is gcc3.2 prerelease?


> Um, who is this M$ you refer to? ...

We know there is no "$" in the name. M$ is a widely-held albeit slightly
derogatory reference to Microsoft.  Why be so thin-skinned? It is good
to see that someone from Microsoft is lurking in this mailing list. (I
guess).

While the author makes some excellent points it is preceeding by what
appears to be some whining about perceptions held by open source
programming vs. closed programming.  Too bad! Perception is reality.
Either work in positive way to change the perception or change the
reality but don't whine about it.


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-----Original Message-----
From: Stephan Mueller [mailto:smueller at Exchange dot Microsoft dot com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 11:53 AM
To: Andrew Markebo
Cc: cygwin at cygwin dot com
Subject: RE: Why is gcc 3.2 prerelease?


Um, who is this M$ you refer to?  If it's a company named Microsoft,
there's no $ in the name.  We all know how much damage a simple mistake
can cause.  Just imagine if someone were trying to do it deliberately.

Seriously, the notion about a careless mistake is a good one.  I am
amused about the way the notion is applied though.  In cases where
careless mistakes are made in commercial products, folks (perhaps like
yourself, Andrew**) suggest that commercial vendors are being evil and
malicious.  Now, when there's a potential for careless mistakes in open
source software, folks (specifically yourself, Andrew) suggest that...
commercial vendors are being evil and malicious!  Saboteurs indeed.

Um, no, you can't blame Microsoft for flaws in open source code.
Mistakes occur in software.  They are nearly inevitable, especially in
large complex pieces of software, regardless of the 'religion'* of the
developers.  Folks who write significant software generally take pride
in their work and do their best to make their software as good as
possible, given available resources and requirements.  Period.  There is
no conspiracy.

Finding ways to eliminate such mistakes is of course, a good thing.  And
yes, in general, it is better to detect errors than not, and better to
detect them at compile time than at run time.  And in general, I think
you'll find that all compiler suites under active development, get
better in this regard as time passes.

stephan();

** and perhaps not by you, Andrew.  But the suggestions are frequently
made by some.

* by 'religion' I'm strictly referring to one's opinions regarding
whether software should be 'free' (as in free speech, not free beer) or
if it's actually OK to charge for it.  That sort of thing.


-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Adams [TEPG Sunbury] [mailto:bruadams at tycoint dot com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 11:25 AM
To: Andrew Markebo
Cc: cygwin at cygwin dot com
Subject: RE: Why is gcc 3.2 prerelease?

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Andrew Markebo [mailto:andrew dot markebo at telia dot com]
>Sent: 05 March 2003 16:15
>To: Bruce Adams [TEPG Sunbury]
>Subject: Re: Why is gcc 3.2 prerelease?
>
>
>Hi!
>
>I suppose you have heard this, but I vote for that GCC 3 burfs on an 
>error (runtime) that GCC 2.95 were to stupid to burf on.. or similar..
>
I wouldn't mind if it "burfed" in an intelligable manner. Better still
if it did it at compile or link time. Sometimes I worry that saboteurs
from M$ have infiltrated GNU and FSF.  We all know how much damage a
simple mistake missed by a programmer and a careless reviewer can cause.
Just imagine if someone was trying to do it deliberately.  Shudder....

>I agree with you though that it might be a bit weird we are running on 
>a prerelease gcc that is a little old.. sort of.. but well, noone have 
>maybe had the time to upgrade it..
>
>      /Andy


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