Re: Added setup.exe to User's Guide

[Joshua Daniel Franklin <joshuadfranklin at yahoo dot com>]

> > I believe most of your suggestions assume that the user has little or
> > no knowledge of Unix. I'm operating under the assumption that most new
> > users have knowledge of Unix and will already have run into things like
> > \r\n line endings, man, info, etc.
> 
>  IMHO my suggestions adds just that *tiny bit* of extra info that makes a
> new user get the grip - without some of the FAQs.

This is true, and makes me feel somewhat guilty since one of the goals I
have for the Cygwin documentation is for it to be more accessible to new
users. However, I think it needs to be organized properly. I hate reading
Linux admin books that start out with how to use 'cp' and 'mkdir'. If I
wanted that, I'd have gotten 'Linux for Dummies' or 'Learning the Unix OS'.
Consequentially, I don't want to pepper a page that is about using setup.exe
with thoughts on man and info, line endings, BSD vs. SysV, or my opinion of
the military action in Iraq. Instead, I need to make a 'If you are new to
Unix' page with a link from the setup-net page. 
 
> I've gotten the impression that this isn't easily accomplished.
> 
> > Install Cygwin on one machine. Copy the cache to a separate machine.
> > Install again. This will work fine, as long as you choose the same mirror.
> 
>  First of all; those two lines belong on the web-page.
>  Second; setup.exe does not cover all situations.
>  Third; It involves loads of manual work, on more than a few machines.
>  Fourth; using a LAN -> high load when all machines has to be updated.
> 
>  This has been discussed throughly here on the ML. With a slant towards the
> second; IMHO this needs to be mentioned, toghether with some kind of
> pointers to the postings - unless it can be summarised directly.
> 
> I'm asking myself: Why do people insist on not telling about the possible
> ways to achieve this?
> IMHO this is like somebody telling you that there is no such thing as "free
> speech" unless you pay the license fee (Here: the bill for having high speed
> Internet). Simply put: _irritating_ >;-} .

While there is some of the gnostic knowledge attitidue to why all this sort
of information is not on the web pages, at least in my case it is mostly an
aversion to putting incorrect information up. I am actually working on a 
page (it's not on the Cygwin site at all yet) that describes how to create
an internal Cygwin mirror. That is something not covered by setup.exe that 
would be useful for people. But I don't want to put up a page that gives a
perfunctory description that someone will try, see that it doesn't work, and
then give up or complain ("Cygwin is really crappy"). I want it to be *right*.
 
> The basis of it - is here:
> - It isn't that fun to download all of cygwin over 128k/ISDN (or slower),
>   you really need something faster than that.
> - Not everybody has ADSL++/flat rate/eons of time for plain downloads.
> - Please, also note: We have to pay in proportion to time, for beeing
> online,
>   over here. This escalates into unbearable bills very soon.
> 
> Example of the last:
>  With minimal Internet online-time I have to pay
> more than $100/month currently.
>  I have no intention to increase the amount on those bills e.g. by
> downloading the entire cygwin.

<mean>So why don't you move?</mean>
While I can't totally empathize since I've never had high Internet bills,
until recently I was on US dialup (that's 53Kb down at best). That's one
reason I got involved with the cygwin-apps discussions, since it was so
difficult to get the minimal installation I wanted. A lot of progress has
been made, but there is still a lot to do. Thankfully, I now have a broadband
connection.
 
> > To what sort of information are you referring?
> 
>  All the postings on the cygwin ML about installing without setup.exe,
> creating CDR-copies of the cache _to be used as install-source_  and so on.
> 
> Am I that unclear in style of writing?
> I find it alarming.

It's not you, it's me. :)
For some reason (I believe it was when I lived in Japan, since you are often
rewarded for being vague there), I have developed a habit of throwing 
hints at people when I know what I want. I need to stop. What I meant, is:

Can you give some links to posts that were helpful to you? 
To a lot of us on the list, how setup.exe works is much more intuitive now
than it was a long time ago. Some posts are what we would consider obvious
information, but a revelation to a newer user. 

On Mon, Mar 24, 2003, Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail) wrote:
> Well, now to the collection of words; something like this, maybe:

Thanks for providing this. A couple suggestions from experience:

--Provide examples ("For example, create a 'C:\cache' directory. Move 
setup.exe to that directory and run it. Make sure that 'C:\cache' is selected
as your Local Package Directory.")

--Generalize the names. You might call the two machines 'host' and 'target' or
something similar.  After all, your fast connection might be at home, and the 
target at work!

I will probably add something similar when I get the chance. If you'd like
to look at the actual source used to create the Cygwin webpages, it's here:

<http://sources.redhat.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/src/winsup/doc/setup-net.sgml?cvsroot=src>

A real 'diff -up' might be applied directly. :)
Because of your Internet connection misfortunes, however, I suspect that the
very large downloads of all the build tools are somewhat beyond your means.
If you're wanting to help with the documentation, send me your address offlist
and I'll mail you a CDR (with sources to comply with the GPL).

As a final note, I want to encourage everyone to keep sending thoughts to
the list. The discussion is very helpful, and though I have a limited amount
of time I plan to work on improving the Cygwin documentation long-term. 

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